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She Gets There Just The Same/Charming Betsy/ Goin' Round the Mountain
Bluegrass and Old-Time song and fiddle tune; DATE: Circa 1880 First recording Fiddlin' John Carson 1925.
ARTIST: Source: Versions from Brown Collection
OTHER NAMES: Rockhouse Gambler; She Gets There Just The Same; Gambling Blues; Rock House Gamblers; Goin' Round the Mountain; Charming Betsy
RECORDING INFO: Acuff, Roy. Steamboat Whistle Blues (1936-39), Rounder SS023, LP (1985), trk# 9 [1936/10] Fink, Cathy;, Duck Donald and Peter Paul Van Camp. I'm Gonna Tell, Likeable 02, LP (1980), trk# 13 Georgia Organ Grinders. Work Don't Bother Me: Old Time Songs from North Georgia, Rounder 1035, LP (1986), trk# B.04 [1929/04/10] Jenkins, Snuffy; and Pappy Sherrill. Snuffy Jenkins. Pioneer of the Bluegrass Banjo, Arhoolie 9027, CD (1998/1962), trk# 6 Ledford, Lily May. Banjo Pickin' Girl, Greenhays GR 712, LP (1983), trk# B.09 Limeliters. Sing Out!, RCA (Victor) LPM-2445, LP (1962), trk# B.01 Norris, Land. Mountain Banjo, Songs and Tunes, County 515, LP (1968), trk# A.02 [1925/04] Painter, Fred. Randolph, Vance / Ozark Folksongs. Volume III, Humorous & Play-Party ..., Univ. of Missouri, Bk (1980/1946), p186/#436 [1941/09/27] Putnam String County Band. Home Grown, Rounder 3003, LP (1973), trk# 12 Sexton, Lee "Boy". Whoa Mule, June Appal JA 051, LP (1987), trk# 1 Stanley, Ralph. Banjo Newsletter, BNL, Ser (1973-), 1984/11,p22 Tenenbaum, Molly. And the Hillsides Are All Covered with Cakes, Cat Hair, Cas (1994), trk# 4 Thomas, Henry (Ragtime Texas Henry). Texas Worried Blues, Yazoo 1080/1, LP (1989), trk# 20
Some Recordings by date:
Fiddlin' John Carson "Charming Betsy" (1925)
Dora Carr as "Black Girl Gets There Just The Same" (1925) (on "Cow Cow Davenport" 1924-29)
Land Norris "Charming Betsy" (c 1926)
Jim Jackson on "Jim Jackson Vol 2" (1928 - 30) (as "Goin' Round The Mountain")
Cleve Chaffin & The MCClung Brothers "Rock House Gamblers" (c 1930)
Georgia Organ Grinders "Charming Betsy" (1929)
Davis and Nelson "Charming Betsy" (c 1929)
Henry Thomas "Charming Betsy" (on "Texas Worried Blues 1927-29")
Roy Acuff and His Crazy Tennesseans on "Steamboat Whistle Blues" (1936-39)
The Farmers Boys on "Flash Crash and Thunder" (1955 - 57)
The Limelighters on "The Slightly Fabulous Limelihgters" (1961)
Snuffy Jenkins on "Pioneer of the Bluegras Banjo" (1962)
Jim Kweskin and The Jug Band on "Unblushing Brassiness" (1963) (as "My Gal")
Putnam String County Band on "Home Grown" (1973)
New Sand Mountain Wildcats on "Gather 'Round" (1984)
Ted Mulry on "GMT Live" (1979)
The Tennesse Mafia Jug Band on "Barnyard Frolic"
Bruce Molsky on "Contented Must Be" (2004)
The Virginia Mountain Boys on "Old Time Bluegrass from Grayson and Carroll Virginia: Vol 3"
Hodges Brothers on "Bogue Chitto Flingding"
Coal Creek Bluegrass Band on "Love of the Mountains" (2003)
NOTES: "Charming Betsy" is very old and an excellent example of a song shared by both black and white traditions. For a discussion of it in the white tradition see chapter 8 of Gene Wiggins 'Fiddlin' Georgia Crazy: Fiddlin' John Carson, His Real World and the World of His Songs' and, for the black tradition, chapter 3 of Paul Oliver 'Songsters & Saints'.
Louise Rand Bascom, in an essay in the Journal of American Folklore Apr-June 1909, dated the song back into the 19th century. There is a possible link with a civil war song about a Castle Thunder, a provost prison in Virginia. In the white tradition, the song has links with songs like 'Coming Round the Mountain', 'She Came Rolling Down the Mountain' and '[Come on Down the Mountain]Katy Daley'. What Wiggins describes as the 'descending hierarchy' - rich gal, poor gal, my gal - with the tag, 'but she [does something] just the same' is paralleled with 'white girl, yellow girl, black girl' and 'yellow girl, brown girl, black girl' and, in some folksongs 'June bug, lightning bug and bedbug'.
Early recordings were made in the 20s by white artists such as Fiddlin' John Carson, Land Norris and the Georgia Organ Grinders and by black artists such as Jim Jackson and Henry Thomas. In his 'Conversation with the Blues', Oliver says that it was one of the first songs ever learned by Gus Cannon, but he did not record it until much later. In the Brown Collection, there are two versions of 'White Gal, Yaller Girl, Black Gal' in which the final stanza about 'charming Betsy' is classified by the editor as 'intrusive'. The last 2 stanzas of one of these, collected in 1914 go:
Oh, a yaller gal, she wears a hobble skirt
Brown gal, she does the same
Black gal wears a old Mary Jane
But it's a hobble just the same
Oh, coming round the mountain, charming Betsy
Coming round the mountain, Cora Lee
If I die before I wake
Do, gals, remember me
[Wiggins p169]
Billy referred above to its popularity among jug bands, but it has turned up in almost every style of music. For example, you can find it in rockabilly. My favourite there is a thumping garage version by a very young Terry Clements and the Tune-Tones for Jay Miller in Louisiana under the title of 'She's My Baby Doll'. You can find that on 'The Legendary Jay Miller Sessions Vol 18: The Girl in the Tight Blue Jeans'.
Wiggins' discussion of the song is quite extensive. Of particular interest is his comment that, in his research, it is the only version he unearthed that seems to have no comic intent. In the second stanza, 'she's' in lines 2 and 4 are John's pronunciation for 'she was'. A printed version of the song, collected in 1909, escapes the 'problem' of having 2 women by substituting ''fore I leave', but practically all versions provide a 'Cora Lee'. The warning against 'marrying a railroad man' probably relates to a time in the mountains when rivalry existed between railroad men and local boys, particularly for women's favours. I like Wiggins' comment about 'ball and chain', a line that is common in folksong: 'It makes a good strong line for a stanza. Anyone who finds a ball and chain on him or her has experienced what students of Aristotle call "reversal of fortune"'. The following is also of interest:
That Betsy may have acquired the ball and chain for running illegal whisky is suggested by John's saying she was 'running' on the train where we should expect him to say she was 'riding' on it. T.S. McCamy, writing from Dalton, Georgia, in 1914, said the song was composed by a moonshiner whose still was discovered by the revenuers. Betsy stood off the officers until he got away, but she was captured. The 'heartless and ungrateful lover', according to McCamy, was making light of Betsy in the song. John could have known such a story, but I am sure he did not see the song as expressing any such attitude. [Wiggins p 168]
Part of the verse form and melody of "Charming Betsy" is found in the minstrel song, "Do Come along, Ole Sandy Boy," "Negro Singers' Own Book," 1846(?), p. 309, and another minstrel song, "Uncle Gabriel" (see Newman I. White, 1928, "American Negro Folk Songs," p. 234 and 316-317).
"Charming Betsy" itself seems to have been a fragment of a separate song, joined as a chorus to the minstrel song.
The first minstrel forms concerned animals:
Mr. Coon he is a mighty man,
He carries a bushy tail,
He steals old massa's corn at night,
And husks it on a rail.
De mink he is a mighty thing,
He rambles in de dark;
The only ting disturbs his peace
Is my old bull dog's bark.
(Negro Singers' Own Book, p. 309, 1846.
In "Christy's Nigga Songster," 1850, verses about Blacks were added, e. g.,
Nigga's hair am berry short,
White man's hair am longer,
White folks dey smell berry strong,
But niggas they smell stonger.
White reported verses from "Negro actors in a small show," Auburn, Al, c. 1915:
Well a white lady wears a hobble skirt,
A yaller gal tries to do the same,
But a poor black gal wears a Mary Jane,
But she's hobbling just the same.
(see post by Stewie, above)
Well a white lady sleeps in a feather bed,
A yaller gal tries to do the same,
But a poor black gal makes a pallet on de floor,
But she's sleeping just the same.
(see post by Michael Morris, above)
"Charming Betsy" may be an entirely different song that has been added to the minstrel verses posted here; related more to "Comin' Round the Mountain.".
In 1908, Louise Rand Bascom, JAFL Vol. 21, No. 84, p. 246, quoted this fragment:
CHARMING BETSY
1.
I'm comin' round the mountain, Charmin' Betsy,
I'm comin' round the mountain, 'fore I leave,
An' if I never more see you,
Take this ring, an' think of me.
2.
An' wear this ring I give you,
An' wear it on your right han',
An' when I'm dead an' forgotten,
Don't give it to no other man.
This song also appears in Brown, North Carolina Folklore, as "All Round the Mountain" or "Charming Betsy."
It's all 'round the mountain, charming Betsy,
It's all 'round the mountain, Cora Lee;
And if I never more see you,
Dear love, remember me.
(verse with music in Brown, vol. 5, "The Music of the Folk Songs," ed. J. P. Schinhan, pp. 180-181.
Johnny Carson or other recorded singer may have married the lyrics of the two songs.
The two are joined in Vance Randolph, "Ozark Folksongs," vol. 3, no 436, p. 185-186:
Chorus:
She'll be comin' round the mountain, charmin' Betsy,
She'll be comin' round the mountain, Cora Lee,
Oh if I never see you any more
Just look at my ring an' think of me.
1.
A rich man lives in a big brick house,
A poor man does the same,
I live down in the old county jail,
Lord, a brick house just the same!
2.
A rich girl drives a big limmerseen,
A poor girl does the same,
My girl drives a model-T Ford,
Lord, she's ridin' just the same!
Sung by Mr. Fred Painter, Galena, MO, 1941. "The first stanza is used as a chorus, being repeated after each of the other verses."
Here's more info: [Dinah, Dinah Show us your Leg is an American bawdy song.
The formula is a descending scale: "Rich girl [does something,] Poor girl [does something else], my girl don't [do whatever the other two do, usually with comic effect.]. The twentieth century versions are possibly the result of merging a minstrel song with "Coming Round the Mountain".
In "Negro Singers' Own Book" (c 1846) there is a song about animals:
Mr. Coon he is a mighty man,
He carries a bushy tail,
He steals old massa's corn at night,
And husks it on a rail.
De mink he is a mighty thing,
He rambles in de dark;
The only ting disturbs his peace
Is my old bull dog's bark.
By 1915 this had become a comment on the fashion tastes of white women:
Well a white lady wears a hobble skirt,
A yaller gal tries to do the same,
But a poor black gal wears a Mary Jane,
But she's hobbling just the same.
Well a white lady sleeps in a feather bed,
A yaller gal tries to do the same,
But a poor black gal makes a pallet on de floor,
But she's sleeping just the same.
Notably lacking in those songs, is a chorus. Another song, "Charmin' Bestsy", noted in 1908, is clearly related to "Coming Round The Mountain":
I'm comin' round the mountain, Charmin' Betsy,
I'm comin' round the mountain, 'fore I leave,
An' if I never more see you,
Take this ring, an' think of me.
An' wear this ring I give you,
An' wear it on your right han',
An' when I'm dead an' forgotten,
Don't give it to no other man.
By 1914, these two songs had become merged into a new song, sometimes called "Charmin' Betsy". A version collected in 1914, called 'White Gal, Yaller Girl, Black Gal' goes as follows:
Oh, a yaller gal, she wears a hobble skirt
Brown gal, she does the same
Black gal wears an old Mary Jane
But it's a hobble just the same
Oh, coming round the mountain, charming Betsy
Coming round the mountain, Cora Lee
If I die before I wake
Do, gals, remember me
Louise Rand Bascom, in an essay in the Journal of American Folklore Apr-June 1909, dated the song back into the 19th century. It appears to cross over between the black and white communities, united in saucy humour. Other version have "City girls, country girls, mountain girls", "White girl, yellow girl, black girl" (or the other way around).
[edit] Recorded versions
Fiddlin' John Carson's version of "Charming Betsy" (1925) is like this:
The first time I saw Charming Betsy
She's a-running on that eastbound train
And the next time I seen Charming Betsy
She's a-wearing the ball and chain
The satire on women's fashion lives on in a polite versions of this song, "How I Love You Darling" [1] and "She's My Baby Doll" [2] To prove that women have a sense of humour as well, the "Girl Scouts of America" have a version of "Charmin' Betsy" (http://www.elowin.com/songs/charmin_betsy.html)
By the 1960s, even sexier verses were known:
Dinah, Dinah show us your leg,
show us your leg, show us your leg
Dinah, Dinah show us your leg,
A yard above the knee
A rich girl rides in a limousine
A poor girl rides a truck
But the only ride that Dinah takes
is when she has a..
A rich girl uses a brassiere
A poor girl uses string
But Dinah uses nothing at all
she just lets the buggers swing
Sources: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
Millwall football club have a parody:
Harry, Harry, break us a leg,
Break us a leg.
Break us a leg.
Harry, Harry, break us a leg,
A yard above the knee.
Harry Cripps was a notoriously hard football player at Millwall.
[edit] References
^ [http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070531130228AAvvXqJ How I Love You Darling
^ She's My Baby Doll
^ Dinah
^ Romsey Rugby Club
^ Rugby song LYrics
^ Jakarta Hash House Harriers
^ Dirty Ditties
Charmin' Betsy anon bluegrass version
Rich girl lives in a big brick house
Poor girl she does the same
My gal lives in the Nashville jail
It's a brick house just the same
She'll be coming round the mountain Charmin' Betsy
She'll be coming round the mountain Cora Lee poor thing
And if I never see you again
Good gal remember me
Rich girl rides in a Cadilac Eight
Poor girl she does the same
My gal rides in a T-Model Ford
But she gets there just the same
Rich girl wears the best perfume
Poor girl she does the same
My gal don't wear no perfume at all
But she gets there just the same
Rich girl wears a satin dress
Poor girl she does the same
My gal wears a burlap bag
But she gets there just the same
Charming Betsy
Rich girl rides in big fine car
Poor girl does the same
My girl rides in a model T Ford
But she gets there just the same.
Coming round the mountain charming Besty (get her boy) [or "get it girl"]
Coming round the mountain Cora Lee (poor thing)
And if I never see her again
That good gal remembers me.
Rich girl lives in a big brick house,
Poor girl does the same.
My gal lives in the Nashville jail
It's a brick house just the same.
Rich girl wears that costly perfume
Bow ties and fancy cloths
My gal wear her old overalls
With the strings hanging down to her toes
Rich girl uses Vaseline
Poor girl uses lard.
My gal uses axle grease
Cause she takes it twice as hard.
'Charming Betsy' is very old and an excellent example of a song shared by both black and white traditions. For a discussion of it in the white tradition see chapter 8 of Gene Wiggins 'Fiddlin' Georgia Crazy: Fiddlin' John Carson, His Real World and the World of His Songs' and, for the black tradition, chapter 3 of Paul Oliver 'Songsters & Saints'.
Louise Rand Bascom, in an essay in the Journal of American Folklore Apr-June 1909, dated the song back into the 19th century. There is a possible link with a civil war song about a Castle Thunder, a provost prison in Virginia. In the white tradition, the song has links with songs like 'Coming Round the Mountain', 'She Came Rolling Down the Mountain' and '[Come on Down the Mountain]Katy Daley'. What Wiggins describes as the 'descending hierarchy' - rich gal, poor gal, my gal - with the tag, 'but she [does something] just the same' is paralleled with 'white girl, yellow girl, black girl' and 'yellow girl, brown girl, black girl' and, in some folksongs 'June bug, lightning bug and bedbug'.
Early recordings were made in the 20s by white artists such as Fiddlin' John Carson, Land Norris and the Georgia Organ Grinders and by black artists such as Jim Jackson and Henry Thomas. In his 'Conversation with the Blues', Oliver says that it was one of the first songs ever learned by Gus Cannon, but he did not record it until much later. In the Brown Collection, there are two versions of 'White Gal, Yaller Girl, Black Gal' in which the final stanza about 'charming Betsy' is classified by the editor as 'intrusive'. The last 2 stanzas of one of these, collected in 1914 go:
Oh, a yaller gal, she wears a hobble skirt
Brown gal, she does the same
Black gal wears a old Mary Jane
But it's a hobble just the same
Oh, coming round the mountain, charming Betsy
Coming round the mountain, Cora Lee
If I die before I wake
Do, gals, remember me
[Wiggins p169]
Billy referred above to its popularity among jug bands, but it has turned up in almost every style of music. For example, you can find it in rockabilly. My favourite there is a thumping garage version by a very young Terry Clements and the Tune-Tones for Jay Miller in Louisiana under the title of 'She's My Baby Doll'. You can find that on 'The Legendary Jay Miller Sessions Vol 18: The Girl in the Tight Blue Jeans'.
DESCRIPTION: "She'll be coming round the mountain, charming Betsey; She'll be coming round the mountain, Cora Lee; If I never see you any more, Pray God remember me." The song usually compares the homes, vehicles, etc. of the rich and poor
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1915 (Brown)
KEYWORDS: separation money nonballad
FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE,So)
REFERENCES (4 citations):
Randolph 436, "Charming Betsey" (1 text, 1 tune)
Randolph/Cohen, pp. 335-336, "Charming Betsey" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 436)
BrownIII 256, "All Around the Mountain, Charming Betsy" (2 short texts); also 17, "I Wouldn't Marry" (7 text (some short) plus 6 excerpts, 1 fragment, and mention of 5 more, of which "the "A" text appears to mix this with "I Won't Marry an Old Maid" and "Raccoon")
DT, COMRNDMT*
Roud #7052
RECORDINGS:
Fiddlin' John Carson, "Charming Betsy" (OKeh 40363, 1925)
Cleve Chaffin & the McClung Brothers, "Rock House Gamblers" (c. 1930; on RoughWays1)
Georgia Organ Grinders, "Charming Betsy" (Columbia 15415-D, 1929)
Davis & Nelson, "Charming Betsy" (QRS 9011, c. 1929)
Land Norris, "Charming Betsy" (OKeh 45033, c. 1926)
Virgil Perkins & Jack Sims, "Goin' Around the Mountain" (on AmSkBa)
Henry Thomas, "Charming Betsy" (Vocalion 1468, 1930 [rec. 1929]; on Cornshuckers2)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "She Gets There Just the Same (Jim Crow Car)" (floating verses)
She Gets There Just The Same-Brown Collection
477 White Gal, Yaller Gal, Black Gal
From David T. House, Jr., Durham, Decemher 5, 1919, with recording, as sung by Miss Eura Mangum, Durham. As published by White ANFS 316-21 (without music).
White gal rides on an automobile.
Yellow gal rides on a train.
Black gal rides on a bull and cart,
But she rides just the same,
B. From H. O. Walz. Durham, December 5, 1919, with recording, as sung by Miss Eura Mangum, Durham. As published by White ANFS 316-21 (without music).
1. White gal rides in automobile.
Yellow gal does the same.
Black gal rides in an old ox-cart,
But gets there just the same.
2 The white gal uses good cold-cream.
The yellow gal does the same.
But the black gal uses pure hog-lard,
But she gets there just the same.
3 The white gal uses perfume soap.
The yellow gal does the same.
But the black gal uses no soap at all,
But she smells just the same.
C. From Harvey Harward. Durham, December 5, 1919, with recording, as sung by Miss Eura Mangum, Durham. As pulished by White ANFS 316-21 (without music).
1 A white gal sleeps in a folding bed,
A brown skin does the same.
A black gal makes a pallet.
But she's sleeping just the same.
2 A white gal rides in an automobile.
A brown skin rides on the train.
A black gal rides in an ox -cart,
But she's riding just the same.
3 A white girl wear a hobble skirt,
A brown skin wears a plain.
A black girl wears a guano sack,
But she's hobbling just the same,
D. From Edwin P. Gibson, Durham, December 5, 191 9, with recording, as sung by Miss Eura Mangum, Durham. As pubhshed in White ANFS 316-21 (without music).
The white gal smells like sweet smellin' soap.
The yaller gal smells the same.
The black gal smells like a billy goat,
But she's smellin" just the same.
E. From Miss Zilpah Rebecca Frisl)ie, Marion, McDowell county, 1923. Cf. White ANFS 316-21. The fourth stanza is from No. 256, above.
1. A white-skin gal. she rides in an automobile.
A brown-skin gal. she do de same.
A black-skin gal ride in a oxen cart,
But she gits there jes' a same.
2. A white-skin gal, she wears a hobble skirt.
A brown-skin gal, she do de same.
A black-skin gal wears a Mary Jane,
But she hobbles jes' a same.
3. A white-skin gal, she smell like a sweet perfume.
A brown-skin gal, she do de same.
A black-skin gal, smell like a billy goat.
But she gotta scent jes' a same.
4. O, go 'round the mountain, charming Betsy,
O, go 'round the mountain, Cora Lee,
And if I never do see you no more,
O, do, gal, remember me.
F. From George C. Little, early address Marines. Onslow county. 1914. Intrusive fourth stanza as in E.
1 Oh, yaller gal rides in an automobile.
Brown skin gal, she does the same.
Black gal, she rides in an old ox-cart,
But she gets there just the same.
2 Oh, yaller gal, she drinks her champagne wine.
Brown skin gal, she does the same.
Black gal, she drinks N. C. corn.
But she gets drunk just the same.
3 Oh, a yaller gal, she wears a hobble skirt.
Brown skin gal, she does the same.
Black gal wears an old Mary Jane,
But it's a hobble just the same.
4.O coming round the mountain, charming Betsy,
Coming round the mountain, Cora Lee.
If I die before I wake.
Do, gals, remember me.
G. From H. A. Cherry, Lilesville, Anscn county; c. 1024. The chorus is from No. 256, above.
1 The white girl rides in an automobile.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal rides in an ol' ox cart.
But she's ridin' just the same.
Chorus: Let's go 'mund the mountain. charming Betsy;
Let's go 'round tlie mountain, Cora Lee.
If I never more see you.
Take my ring and follow me.
2 The white girl wears a twenty-live dollar wig.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal aint got no hair a-tall.
But she gets there just the same.
3 The white girl wears a fifty-dollar dress.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal buys her a cheap Mary-Jane.
Rut she's sporting just the same.
4 The white girl sleeps in a nice feather bed.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal makes a pallet on de flo',
But she's snoozing just the same.
5 The white girl lives in a nice brick house.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal got all in jail.
But it's a brick house just the same.
6 The white girl's smellin' like a sweet cake o' soap.
The brown skin do de same.
The black gal's smellin' like an ol' billy goat.
But she's smellin' just the same.
H. 'The Rich Girl Wears the Ten Dollar Shoes.' This fragment exists in two copies in the Collection, one of which, from R. B. Edwards of Durham, has already been published (ANFS 321). The other (the texts are identical ) comes from Lucille Cheek of Chatham county. A bit with a like contrast though not identical with ours is reported from
the singing of Negro convicts in South Carolina (JAFL xliv 433).
The rich girl wears the ten-dollar shoes,
The brown-skin gal does the same.
The poor black gal ain't got no shoes at all
But she gets there just the same.
483 Rich Man Rides on a Pullman Car
From J. P. Jones, Durham, 1919. with recording as sung by Miss Eura Mangum — heard by Mr. Jones "while walking on the railroad ... in Durham County." and also as "sung by Negroes working on the roads of Durham." Published in White ANFS 316-21 (without music). Cf. 'White Folks in de Parlor' and 'White Gal, Yaller Gal, Black Gal,' above.
Rich man rides on a pullman car.
Poor man takes de plain.
But de ole *feller rides on de coal car.
But he gets there just the same.
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